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Slaughtering (including Kosher or Halal)
01-09-2008, 07:26 PM (This post was last modified: 12-14-2011 12:21 PM by Director Michael.)
Post: #1
Slaughtering (including Kosher or Halal)
It seems that there are slaughterhouses which slaughter animals before they are dead.
This would mean violation of the commandment no to eat a limb torn from a living animal.
An Islamic butcher first prays to G-d before killing the aninimal.
So I wonder if it is allowed for B'nei Noah to buy meat from an Islamic butcher.
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01-10-2008, 12:14 PM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2008 01:02 PM by Director Michael.)
Post: #2
RE: Islamic butcher
Technically, "slaughtering" refers to the means of killing an animal. The slaughtering CAUSES the death of the animal. But there is almost always some time delay between the act of slaughtering and the time when the heart of the animal stops beating, which is the Torah's definition of the death of the animal. In fact, Noahides should be even more strict, and eat only meat that is removed after the limbs of the animal stop convulsing.

It is no problem for Noahides to eat meat from animals slaugthered by the Islamic ritual method (called "Halal"), as long as the meat is not removed before the animal's heart stops beating and the limbs stop convulsing.

For detailed information on Kosher, Halel, and Noahide slaughtering requirements, please refer to this presentation at the AMI Conference in Overland Park, Kansas, on Feb. 21, '06:

http://www.meatami.com/EventsEducation/A...rami06.pdf

(Note: the organs mentioned in the optional "strict opinion" on slide #26 are actually allowed for Noahides.)
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01-10-2008, 06:42 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2011 09:31 PM by Director Michael.)
Post: #3
Slaughterhouse practices
Thank you for your answer and the link.

It seems that in many slaughterhouses they begin cutting up the meat before the animal is really dead.
When you look at the way the animals are transported and handled in the slaughterhoses you can also ask yourself the following.
If we continue to buy the "normal" meat aren't we partcipating in an indirect manner and allowing cruelty to animals and even also indirectly responible for cruelty to animals?

Maybe I am taking this too far, but these are my thoughts.
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01-14-2008, 05:51 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2011 06:27 AM by Director Michael.)
Post: #4
RE: Slaughterhouse practices
BS"D

Kochimodo Wrote:It seems that in many slaughterhouses they begin cutting up the meat before the animal is really dead.

This probably varies a lot from country to country, and even locally, from one slaughterhouse to another. In the U.S. the emphasis of the government regulations and guidelines has been on legislating "humane" slaughter (minimal pain and stress to the animal) instead of Noahide slaughter (humane, but additionally with no butchering before the beating of the heart has stopped).

The *large-scale* U.S. slaughterhouses for cows and hogs are regulated for "humane" slaughter. The small-scale ones are not, but they operate at lower volume and speed, which helps. When the published government guidelines are followed, there is very little CHANCE of food meat from these livestock being removed before the heart stops beating. Therefore it more of a concern at the slaughterhouse, than for the consumer who buys random meat that comes from the slaughterhouse.

Even if the butchering on an animal would begin before the heart stops beating, G-d forbid, only a fraction of the meat would be removed while it's forbidden. The animal would be dead before most of the meat was removed, so there would be a small chance that a consumer would purchase a random piece of forbidden meat. But that doesn't justify the practice of slaughtering in such a manner, and indeed it should not be allowed.

Kochimodo Wrote:When you look at the way the animals are transported and handled in the slaughterhoses you can also ask yourself the following.
If we continue to buy the "normal" meat aren't we partcipating in an indirect manner and allowing cruelty to animals and even also indirectly responible for cruelty to animals?

Again, this probably varies a lot from country to country, and even locally. If you can get information on the standards or practices for your source of meat, then you can make an informed decision. Unfortunately, that can be very difficult for the consumer. On the other hand, a Noahide is only responsible for willful transgression, e.g. if there is known evidence that a particular piece of meat was probably removed from a living animal and you eat it anyway, or if most of the available meat is known to be "eiver min ha'chai" [meat removed from a live animal - meaning, while its heart is still beating] and you don't make the effort to be sure that your piece of meat is OK.
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02-08-2008, 08:06 AM
Post: #5
RE: slaughtering
Shalom,

After a bull frog is caught, (by stabbing it with like a pitchfork), and the legs are cut off and put in a skillet to fry them, the legs still jump around in the skillet. The heart of the frog may very well have quit after pitchforking it, but it doesn't seem right. Should not the animal completely stop twitching before removing a leg?
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02-08-2008, 03:05 PM
Post: #6
RE: slaughtering
The Noahide Commandment which forbids eating flesh that was removed from an "animal" that is still alive (or still convulsing) only applies to birds and land mammals.

But gentiles are allowed to eat all kinds of animals. If an animal is being killed for food, it should not be subjected to unnecessary suffering in the process. Cutting off the legs of a frog while it is still sensitive to pain would be unnecessarily cruel, and thus not allowed. But the meat itself would be allowed to be eaten.
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08-28-2008, 07:02 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2011 06:31 AM by Director Michael.)
Post: #7
RE: Islamic butcher
Director Michael Wrote:the time when the heart of the animal stops beating, which is the Torah's definition of the death of the animal. In fact, Noahides should be even more strict, and eat only meat that is removed after the limbs of the animal stop convulsing.

It is no problem for Noahides to eat meat from animals slaughtered by the Islamic ritual method (called "Halal"), as long as the meat is not removed before the animal's heart stops beating and the limbs stop convulsing.
--------------
Shalom Director Michael and Rabbis

What is the optimal Noahide slaughter method?
From reading the internet I suspect it should be three components. Please tell me if I am right, missing anything or exaggerating.

1) The blood should be poured out of the body. “Only flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.” (Genesis 9:4)
2) The heart should stop beating before the beginning to cut the body up, as the Jewish definition of death is that when the heart stops beating, the animal dies.
3) The dead body should be allowed to stop having convulsions before cutting the body up, as the movements indicate that the parts of the body still have life giving oxygen (that the blood provided just minutes ago).

To my understanding Noahide slaughter can (or should?) include the use of the bolt pistol (to make the animal unconscious) in the brain, as long as the blood is poured out till the heart stops beating. What's your opinion on the use of bolt-pistols or similar devices?


How important is point three, that the body should have no convulsions?
This might be the hardest thing to know and get answers about from the slaughterers. If that is an important point, then I suspect (but do not know) a lot of meat (Most? Maybe even kosher and Halal?) in Europe and USA is not edible for Noahides.

Yours

Niklas Ekestam
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09-06-2008, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2008 08:16 AM by Director Michael.)
Post: #8
RE: Islamic butcher
NiklasTyreso Wrote:
Director Michael Wrote:the time when the heart of the animal stops beating, which is the Torah's definition of the death of the animal. In fact, Noahides should be even more strict, and eat only meat that is removed after the limbs of the animal stop convulsing.
It is no problem for Noahides to eat meat from animals slaugthered by the Islamic ritual method (called "Halal"), as long as the meat is not removed before the animal's heart stops beating and the limbs stop convulsing.
--------------
Shalom Director Michael and Rabbis

What is the optimal noahide slaughter method?

Any method which does not cause unnecessary suffering to the animal. The death of the animal should be quick, and not prolonged. (If there is some overriding human need, it is not forbidden to subject the animal to some short suffering if necessary, but that is not preferred.)

NiklasTyreso Wrote:From reading the internet I suspect it should be three components. Please tell me if I am right, miss anything or exagerate.
1)The blood should be poured out of the body, [based on the verse] “Only flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.” Gen 9:4

You have misinterpreted that verse, which really means that a person should not eat the meat of an animal while there is still life-blood being pumped through the animal. (More detailed analysis proves that this prohibition only applies as a commandment regarding land mammals and birds. But still it is not permitted to deliberately subject any type of creature to unnecessary suffering.) Noahides, unlike Jews, are permitted to consume the blood of animals, so it's not required to pour out the blood. However, slaughtering in a way that allows the life-blood to pour out quickly will cause the heart to stop beating quicker, because the heart will not beat when it is empty of blood. (It may quiver by electrical muscle spasms, but that does not indicate life.)

NiklasTyreso Wrote:2)The hart should stop beating before the beginning to cut the body up, as the Jewish definition of death is when the hart stop beating the animal die.

Yes. That is God's definition of the death of the animal, i.e., that is when the animal's "soul" (life force) has separated from its body.

NiklasTyreso Wrote:3)The dead body should be allowed to stop having convulsions before cutting the body up as the movements indicate that the parts of the body still have life giving oxygen (that the blood provided just minutes ago).

That is the correct procedure, but the reason is because if the animal is still convulsing, it looks like it is still alive. If people would start butchering animals while they appear to be alive, the result would be that they would start butchering animals a moment earlier, when they haven't died yet. (If a Jew does kosher-slaughter on a kosher animal, the waiting period until the end of the convulsions is not technically required, but it is highly recommended.)

NiklasTyreso Wrote:To my understanding Noahide slaughter can (or should?) include the use of the bolt pistol (to make the animal unconscious) in the brain, as long as the blood is poured out till the heart stops beating. What's your opinions on the use of bolt-pistols or similar devises?

Those methods are allowed for Noahides, as long as they are done properly, by properly trained persons, so there won't be a mistake that will cause the animal to suffer.

NiklasTyreso Wrote:How important is point three, that the body should have no convulsions?

It is an actual prohibition if the convulsions haven't stopped, but there is no liability to earthly punishment if that is transgressed. The prohibition against severing and eating the meat while the animal is still alive is much more severe.

NiklasTyreso Wrote:This might be the hardest thing to know and get answers about from the slaughters. If that is a important point, then I suspect (but do not now) a lot of meat (Most? Maybe even kosher and hallal) in europe and USA is not edible for noahides.

Truly kosher meat is by definition no problem for Noahides, and it can be eaten without question. The humane slaughter guidelines that apply for *large* slaughtering operations for cattle in the US, pretty much avoid the possibility of meat being removed while an animal is alive. But that is not yet a legislated rule, unfortunately.

Anyway, a Noahide is only held to be liable for the transgression if he knows that the meat was definitely removed from a living animal, and he goes ahead and eats it anyway (for example, "mountain oysters" that are the cooked testicles of castrated male cattle).
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12-06-2009, 11:30 PM
Post: #9
RE: slaughtering
Hi,

regarding chicken (or fowl in general): If the chicken is killed by cutting off its head completely, does that constitute a case of butchering before it is dead? Does the mitzvah include only eating of flesh cut from the animal before it was dead, or does it include also cutting meat from the animal before it was dead?

Thanks!
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12-11-2009, 02:46 AM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2009 02:47 AM by Director Michael.)
Post: #10
RE: slaughtering
From "The Divine Code," Volume 1, by Rabbi Moshe Weiner, p. 320 [with bracketed information inserted here for clarity]:

"When the head of an animal has been severed [which is an accepted means of slaughtering for Gentile food], i.e., its esophagus, windpipe, spine and veins have been cut through, even though it [the head] is still attached to the trunk by the skin [and certainly if the head is fully detached], the animal is certainly dead even though its heart continues beating for several moments. The prohibition of meat or organs removed from a living animal does not apply to it in this condition."

The footnote there states, "This case denotes complete death, and the animal is not [even] considered to be convulsing."
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