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Question about innocent people and idolatry.
#1
Is someone that has never read of heard of the God of Abraham, let alone been able to study about it, still sinning if he serves a god of his native land ? IE, is an Indian person that believes in Hinduism sinning for something he has no choice in ? I understand "dont kill" , "dont be cruel to animals" etc to be universal and thus So what about these people (people that dont know, never heard) concerning "idolatry" ?
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#2
Liability for transgressions of the Noahide Commandments is only incurred if one does the forbidden act knowingly and deliberately (with the exception of negligent homicide). Please see Part 1, Chapter 4, in "The Divine Code," Volume 1, by Rabbi Moshe Weiner, where this question is answered in detail. If a person errs in judging his own sinful actions as permissible, he is only liable if he should have learned that those actions are forbidden. In geographical areas or times in history in which a community does not know at all about non-obvious aspects of the Noahide Commandments (for example, the prohibition against idolatry), one can't say that the person should have learned them, because it wasn't yet possible, and therefore he isn't liable for them. But for the aspects that are universally logically binding according to adult human intellect, there is no exemption for not knowing/realizing that they are forbidden.
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#3
Director Michael Wrote:But for the aspects that are universally logically binding according to adult human intellect, there is no exemption for not knowing/realizing that they are forbidden.

Michael,

I would like to add a thought. All commandments that are duty bound by logic are binding on the Bnei Noach. But here is the thought-- a wise man who sees the reasons behind more of the commandments than a simple man, might have more responsibility to keep them. Some of Moses commands make sense to me that don't necessarily make sense to the majority of people. Also there are commands I don't understand logically, that the majority understands.
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#4
Director Michael Wrote:Liability for transgressions of the Noahide Commandments is only incurred if one does the forbidden act knowingly and deliberately (with the exception of negligent homicide). Please see Part 1, Chapter 4, in "The Divine Code," Volume 1, by Rabbi Moshe Weiner, where this question is answered in detail. If a person errs in judging his own sinful actions as permissible, he is only liable if he should have learned that those actions are forbidden. In geographical areas or times in history in which a community does not know at all about non-obvious aspects of the Noahide Commandments (for example, the prohibition against idolatry), one can't say that the person should have learned them, because it wasn't yet possible, and therefore he isn't liable for them. But for the aspects that are universally logically binding according to adult human intellect, there is no exemption for not knowing/realizing that they are forbidden.

Dear Michael,
That seems to imply that true ignorance of the severity of idolatry is bliss, if those that don't know aren't told (since they won't be held liable).

Also, which are 'the aspects that are universally logically binding according to adult human intellect'? Since the 7 laws are meant to be defined by the Oral Law, and in Laws of Kings 8:11 says the following, how can 'universally logically binding according to adult human intellect' apply?

A Gentile who accepts the seven commandments and observes them meticulously is a “Righteous Gentile,” and will have a portion in the World to Come, provided that he accepts and performs them because G--d commanded so in the Torah.... But if his observance is based upon reason, he is not a resident alien, or one of the pious Gentiles, or one of their wise men.

Thanks in advance to your reply. Shalom.
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#5
pixelman Wrote:Dear Michael,
That seems to imply that true ignorance of the severity of idolatry is bliss, if those that don't know aren't told (since they won't be held liable).

A common misunderstanding arises because there are two dimensions of benefit that a Gentile can receive for observing the Noahide Commandments, according to the two levels of motivation for which they could be fulfilled.

(a) The lower level of benefit is that by simply refraining from transgressing the Noahide Commandments, for whatever reason (e.g. out of intellectual conviction, or fear of punishment by the society's legal system, or due to lack of opportunity), one removes himself from liability to capital punishment for those sins, by either the law enforcement system or by the Hand of Heaven. Furthermore, the society at large benefits, because an individual's observance of any and all of the Noahide Commandments serves to maintain the overall well-being of the society. However, this lower level of observance is not sufficient to make the Gentile worthy of being resurrected by G-d for an eternal life of spiritual reward in the World to Come.

(b) The higher level of benefit (resurrection for an eternal life of spiritual reward in the World to Come) is achieved if the Gentile *attaches* himself to the "Tree of Life," which is G-d's eternal holy Torah that He gave through Moses (see Proverbs 3:18). This attachment of the Gentile to holiness, which is achieved through purposefully being a "pious Gentile," is accomplished in the manner explained by Rambam in Laws of Kings 8:11, which you cited:
"A Gentile who accepts these seven commandments and observes them meticulously is one of the “pious Gentiles,” and will merit to have a portion in the World to Come ... provided that he accepts and fulfills them because the Holy One, blessed be He, commanded them in the Torah and informed us [the Jewish people] through Moses, our teacher, that Noah's descendants had previously been commanded to fulfill them."

So in reference to your question, the true "bliss" that a Gentile can earn is the eternal bliss of the World to Come. This bliss is not something that is received automatically through ignorance. Instead, it is received through an active process of properly directed learning, faith, and purposeful fulfillment.

pixelman Wrote:Also, which are "the aspects that are universally logically binding according to adult human intellect"? Since the 7 laws are meant to be defined by the Oral Law, and Laws of Kings 8:11 says the following [see above], how can "universally logically binding according to adult human intellect" apply?

Only some of the Noahide Commandments, at their basic level, are universally logically binding according to adult human intellect. For example, a mentally sound person has a firm conviction that if he is out minding his own business, he would not want someone to walk up to him and murder him or rob him. The person also understands intellectually that if predisposed people would be allowed to commit those injurious acts at will with no threat of punishment, the society would be reduced to living by the law of the jungle. Therefore, murderers and robbers are liable to be punished by a court of law, and by the Hand of Heaven, even if they have no knowledge of the Torah.
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#6
Is sin (defined for Gentiles) limited to transgression of one of the 7 Mitzvot or is sinful behavior inclusive of actions (inaction) outside the 7 commandments? Is a Gentile responsible for his/her sins of idolatry & teaching others to be active in idolatrous worship when he/she was ignorant of Hashem's covenant with Noah and his descendants and their obligation to fulfill the 7 Mitzvot?
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#7
(12-31-2013, 01:34 PM)rocnoahide Wrote: Is sin (defined for Gentiles) limited to transgression of one of the 7 Mitzvot or is sinful behavior inclusive of actions (inaction) outside the 7 commandments?

This is answered by a passage in the author's introduction to the book "The Divine Code":

"In addition to observing the Seven Noahide Commandments with their many details, a Gentile is commanded to act in the proper ways that human intelligence would compel him, whether these are obligations to G-d or to other people, or to society as a whole. Even though Gentiles are not commanded in detail about these parameters of proper conduct, nevertheless, G-d carefully checks and judges all the ways of every person. There are actions for which the individual or the society is liable to be punished, since such behavior is not appropriate for the human race, even though it is beyond the scope of the Seven Commandments."

(12-31-2013, 01:34 PM)rocnoahide Wrote: Is a Gentile responsible for his/her sins of idolatry & teaching others to be active in idolatrous worship when he/she was ignorant of Hashem's covenant with Noah and his descendants and their obligation to fulfill the 7 Mitzvot?

Once a Gentile becomes aware that he has committed these sins in error, he should sincerely repent from his belief and involvement with idolatry, and G-d will forgive. Once can look to Jethro in the Book of Exodus. He was a priest for all known forms of idolatry at that time, but then after he fully rejected all idolatry and repented, and henceforth served only the One True G-d, he was beloved by G-d and he merited to have an entire portion of the Torah named after him - the portion that includes G-d's speaking the "Ten Commandments" at Mount Sinai.

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