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(05-08-2013, 09:27 AM)amenyahu Wrote: I did a search on the term "dina d'malchuta" and found that it refers to Jews living in foreign lands. When and where is it initially said to be part of the Noahide command of dinim? Is this a conclusion to a logical argument that if it applies to Jews therefore it applies to gentiles? Or is there an explicit statement is the earlier writings of the Sages or the Rishonim that outrightly says "d d'm d" is part and parcel of the Noahide Commandments?

RambaM and RambaN are two Rishonim who deal with this directly as part and parcel of the Noahide Commandments. However, they disagree about what is the main function of the Noahide Commandment for Dinim (Laws and Courts). In terms of practical outcome, the majority Rabbinical opinion follows that of RambaN, and this is reflected in Rabbi Moshe Weiner's book "Sheva Mitzvot HaShem", vol. 3 (Dinim).

1. Both RambaM and RambaN agree that the Noahide obligation for laws and courts presupposes an obligation for enforcement officials who work as agents of the courts. Laws and courts without enforcement officials or punishments for law-breakers are not accounted as real laws or real courts. See Deuteronomy 16:18 and Rashi's explanation there.

2. There is overall agreement that a main purpose of the Seven Laws is to provide a Divinely commanded basic framework for establishing Gentile societies that are (a) stable, and (b) moral in G-d's eyes. However, we know of no time in history, to date, when there was a whole Gentile society that was ruled specifically on the basis of all the Noahide Laws, other than the kingdom in the area of Israel that was established by Noah's son Shem after the Flood. That kingdom shrank and then broke down as the Canaanite tribes invaded and took over that region. When Abraham first arrived there, the Canaanites were in the process of conquering the kingdom of Shem. (See Rashi's explanation on Genesis 12:6.)

3. (A digression) Nevertheless, "the hearts of kings are in the hand of G-d", and it is G-d's will that the world has been ruled for 4000 years by Gentile governments that do not follow all of the Noahide Laws. This is analogous to the fact that G-d commanded that people should not murder, yet He allows murders to happen on a daily basis, and in general He allows the world to be ruled by evil. This is a consequence of Adam and Hava's sin of partaking of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and their temporary expulsion from the Garden of Eden. This is all in accordance with G-d's infinite wisdom and His plan for bringing mankind ultimately to a higher spiritual level than the original Garden of Eden.

As a case in point, one detail of the Noahide Commandment of Dinim is that Gentile nations are forbidden to usurp land from other nations by military conquest. Nevertheless, G-d instilled in many kings the evil inclination to do so, and specifically in order to achieve His objectives in the realm of world politics. For example, there was land held by the Moabites and Ammonites that was destined to become part of the inheritance of the Jewish tribes, but G-d did not give the Jews permission to take over any land from those nations, since they were descended from Lot. Therefore G-d put into the hearts of the Amorite kings the desire and ability to conquer that land from the Moabites and Ammonites, so the Jews could take it from the Amorites. Of course, the Amorite kings sinned and were punished for that evil deed which they chose to do.

4. RambaM's opinion about the Noahide Commandment for Dinim is given in Laws of Kings 9:14. He limits the Torah-based obligation for Noahide Dinim to laws, court judgments, punishments and public education regarding the other six Noahide Commandments.

Note: The Noahide Laws do not command or specify that there must be or must not be a particular form of government manifesting the power to make the laws and courts (e.g. democratic, federalist, parliamentary, kingship, dictatorship, communism, socialism, military, etc.). That is up to the will of G-d, as is the displacement of one government by another government by conquest, revolution, political shift, etc. See below where this is discussed further.

Please see also the relevant Torah Laws cited by RambaM in his Mishneh Torah, Laws of Robbery 5:11-14,18 (dealing mainly with the issue of government taxes; see Post #5 in this thread). These laws apply for both Gentile and Jewish citizens. Note that in 5:11, RambaM states, "the law of the king is the law," and in that section, he explains the parameters in which this applies in regard to the *license* for the king to punish law-breakers who have chosen to remain living in his country. You may investigate the footnotes to these laws in the translation by Rabbi Eliyahu Touger, "Sefer Nezikin," p. 282-286. pub. Moznaim, 19'97. Rabbi Touger cites explanations on this from Sefer Me'irat Einayim, Chatam Sofer, Ramah (Choshen Mishpat) and Rav Yosef Karo (e.g. Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat).

5. The opinion of RambaN which differs in emphasis from RambaM's Laws of Kings 9:14 is found in RambaN's explanation of Genesis 34:13. He states there: "In my opinion, the 'Dinim' that the Sages counted among the Seven Commandments does not mean [only!] that they are required to set up judges in every district [to judge only (!) concerning the other 6 commandments]. Rather, [G-d] commanded them [the Gentiles] concerning the laws of theft, overcharging, withholding wages, the laws of bailees and of the rapist, or the seducer [of minors], the various categories of damages, personal injury, the laws of creditors and debtors, the laws of buying and selling, etc. - comparable to (but not necessarily identical to) the civil laws about which Israel was commanded.

(05-08-2013, 09:27 AM)amenyahu Wrote: Response to point "a": At least that confirms what I've been saying. Tyrannies are acceptable according to this view of the Torah Laws for Gentiles as long as it is either consistent or a government can dupe its peoples into accepting it.

That is NOT correct, and I'm sorry that you haven't understood this point. Tyrannies are NEVER acceptable. In fact, the Talmud states that the very harshest Divine punishment of all (Isaiah 66:24) is reserved for tyrants who rule tyrannically over populations of people. Certainly that means that tyrannies are NOT acceptable according to Torah = in the eyes of G-d.

(05-08-2013, 09:27 AM)amenyahu Wrote: Response to point "b": the key words are "if possible". "historical facts" are prone to interpretation and at best tell us what can happen, not what will happen.

Everything is in the hands of G-d. This includes governments, famine, plagues, epidemics, floods, droughts, earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tsunamis, volcanoes, meteors, solar flares, wars, etc.

(05-08-2013, 09:27 AM)amenyahu Wrote: Response to point "c": this is dependent on the amount of people who try to invade the rule for the proper reason. It is also dependent on the education and knowledge of those people. There are different forms of tyranny: the overt kind and the underhanded kind. It is like perfecting an art form. Today's government show a real skill at manipulation and control.

Yes, they have it down to an art, with all of the enabling power provided by modern technology. The tyrants of today learn from all of the "mistakes" of the tyrants who preceded them.

(05-08-2013, 09:27 AM)amenyahu Wrote: Response to point "e": this would be considered an overgeneralization. You said:

"they have been keeping justice between people to a level that has kept peace in the society. Therefore their laws in those areas are dinim, since they are made for the upkeep of the society"
I have no clue which body of law you are referring to.

I am referring to the laws in the areas cited by both RambaM and RambaN, that are mentioned above.

(05-08-2013, 09:27 AM)amenyahu Wrote: No, I'm not saying that all the laws of the western governments are bad. But to say that the laws of western governments are made for the upkeep of the people betrays a naive understanding of such laws and the law makers. How can on one hand I be told - rightly I might add - that I should put no trust in government, and then, on the other hand, I would be told that the laws are for the upkeep of the people, as if to keep a people in check to a certain extent implies the purpose of a body of law that has been made so vast and confusing. I very much disagree with this point.

Apparently you misunderstood the point, and maybe it was not communicated clearly.
Trying again: The point is that the phenomenon of Gentile governance in the human condition was created by G-d for the purpose of the upkeep of people, as I will explain shortly. The fact that all Gentile governments produce laws is a logical (natural) outcome of the phenomenon of their governance, because certainly their motivation to produce laws is NOT on account of obedience to being commanded to do so by G-d. It is also a fact that between the original Garden of Eden and the future Messianic Era, (a) the evil in the hearts of people inevitably (as an historical observation) turns governance into corruption and/or tyranny, and (b) over the course of time there are ups and downs in the relative good or evil of the governance over any region of the globe.

The fact that a government's system of laws, courts, and law enforcement provides for the "upkeep of the people" (to be understood in context) can be seen from what happens when there is a black-out in a major city. Under cover of darkness, with alarms inactive and enforcement officers preoccupied with life-and-death emergencies, the stores are broken into and emptied of their contents by mobs of people, most of whom would not steal so brazenly under the normal societal circumstances, when the rule of the government and threat of arrest is in effect.

The same thing was observed during the US-Iraq war. When the government of the tyrant Saddam Hussein was toppled (thank G-d!), in broad daylight there was a free-for-all of looting of stores by the Muslim population.

Messages In This Thread
Taxation - by Zulske - 03-08-2012, 01:28 PM
RE: Taxation - by Rabbi Moshe Weiner - 03-09-2012, 04:36 AM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 03-09-2012, 04:42 AM
RE: Taxation - by Zulske - 03-09-2012, 05:47 AM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 03-13-2012, 11:15 AM
RE: Taxation - by Mattityahu ben Noach - 03-15-2012, 04:44 PM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 03-16-2012, 06:44 PM
RE: Taxation - by Zulske - 03-17-2012, 05:04 PM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 03-20-2012, 04:48 PM
RE: Taxation - by amenyahu - 03-28-2013, 01:54 AM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 04-10-2013, 03:18 PM
RE: Taxation - by amenyahu - 04-16-2013, 11:34 PM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 04-17-2013, 06:52 AM
RE: Taxation - by amenyahu - 04-24-2013, 05:08 PM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 04-27-2013, 07:14 AM
RE: Taxation - by amenyahu - 05-03-2013, 11:47 PM
RE: Taxation - by Rabbi Moshe Weiner - 05-08-2013, 03:27 AM
RE: Taxation - by amenyahu - 05-08-2013, 09:27 AM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 05-08-2013, 06:04 PM
RE: Taxation - by amenyahu - 05-10-2013, 10:45 AM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 05-18-2013, 10:11 AM
Dinim: Courts or Government - by amenyahu - 07-08-2013, 09:00 PM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 07-09-2013, 12:08 AM
RE: Taxation - by amenyahu - 07-09-2013, 12:59 AM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 07-10-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: Taxation - by amenyahu - 07-13-2013, 05:53 PM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 07-14-2013, 07:44 PM
RE: Taxation - by amenyahu - 07-14-2013, 09:21 PM
RE: Taxation - by Director Michael - 07-21-2013, 07:04 PM
RE: Taxation - by cheryl - 10-19-2013, 10:15 PM

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