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Fellowship in a non-Torah community
#1
Hello, I am new here.

What type of fellowship is acceptable if there is no Jewish community near? The nearest Jewish community of any kind is over 60 miles away and only meets together about once per month. The nearest Orthodox Jewish community is nearly 100 miles away from me. Is it idolatrous to seek local fellowship?
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#2
I live quite far from any Jewish communities. (The nearest of any kind is over 60 miles away and meets only about once per month. The nearest Orthodox Jewish community is about 100 miles away.) What is someone in my situation to do with regard to religion and fellowship? Is it idolatrous for me to use locally available resources to help me teach my family? I want my children to have some form of community that is faith-based. What is a Noahide to do?

On a related note - some people in my community are likely to express anti-semitic sentiments (either directly or somewhat indirectly). This also is a big problem for me.

What suggestions or direction could you offer on how to realistically provide a faith-community for my family that would not be idolatrous?
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#3
BS"D

noodle Wrote:Hello, I am new here. What type of fellowship is acceptable if there is no Jewish community near? The nearest Jewish community of any kind is over 60 miles away and only meets together about once per month. The nearest Orthodox Jewish community is nearly 100 miles away from me. Is it idolatrous to seek local fellowship?

Greetings Noodle, and welcome to the Forum.

In this response, I'm assuming that you are an observant Noahide (not Jewish). When you ask about acceptable "fellowship," you need to make a separation in your thoughts between Friendship and Worship. Worship is something that is between G-d and you, and it does not require the presence of group participation (no group in the heavens above or on the earth below). All the more so, it does not require (or allow) that you put yourself into a place of idolatry, just so you can be with others while you yourself pray to the One True G-d.

But of course it is certainly OK to pray together as a family.

However, don't forget that just like yourself, there could be observant Noahides living in your close vicinity, wondering about this same question. So it is always a good idea to write in privately to me (Dr. Schulman, the Director of Ask Noah International / AskNoah.org), and ask if I know of any Noahides who are living in your area.

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with associating on a personal level with other persons in your community, as long as the persons are not a bad influence on you or your family members, and are not trying to draw you into idolatry, or away from your Noahide faith or your observance of any of the Noahide Commandments. The following is a precise explanation of what this means.

One should conduct himself or herself as Rabbi Nittai of Arbel taught in the Tractate "Ethics of the Fathers" 1:7 - "Keep away from a 'bad' neighbor, do not 'fraternize' with a wicked person, and do not abandon belief in [Divine] retribution." The wording of this Mishna is very precise, and the Rebbe explained the meaning as follows [in Likkutei Sichos, vol. 4]:

1) "Keep away from a 'bad' neighbor": The Mishnah does not say "Keep away from a 'wicked' neighbor," for its intent is not that one should judge another's conduct. Instead, the intent is that a person should decide whether closeness to a particular individual is beneficial or detrimental to his own divine service. The neighbor may be above all reproach, but traveling a different path of divine service. Any attempt to identify with him might thus be "bad," i.e. create confusion and discord.

2) "Do not 'fraternize' with a wicked person": Here, the Mishnah does not use the term "keep away," for the intent is not that one should sever contact with a person because his conduct is unworthy. "Al tis'haver," translated as "do not fraternize," literally means "do not join to." One should not "join" a wicked person by accepting his standards. One should, however, reach out with warmth and love to all people, regardless of their conduct, and endeavor to inspire them to improve themselves.

[Dr. Schulman notes: This is the way of the "disciples of Aaron - loving peace and pursuing peace, loving your fellow creatures, and bringing them near to the Torah." (Tractate "Ethics of the Fathers" 1:12) And how much more so should one endeavor to inspire himself to self-improvement (especially in the realm of learning and observance of the Noahide Commandments).]

3) "Do not abandon belief in [Divine] retribution": When a person lives in constant awareness of the possibility of Divine retribution, he will sincerely regret any misconduct. The discomfort this awareness brings will itself atone for his misdeeds, precluding the necessity for retribution from Heaven.
----end quote----

On the contrary, you can have a positive influence on others around you, in the realm of general morality, or observance of the Noahide Commandments, or acceptance of the eternal Truth of the Torah.
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#4
noodle Wrote:What is someone in my situation to do with regard to religion and fellowship?

Please see the response posted above.

noodle Wrote:Is it idolatrous for me to use locally available resources to help me teach my family?

In terms of secular studies, there should be ample material available, both locally, by mail order, and from the Internet. You should just review anything which you present to your children, to make sure it is not idolatrous, atheistic, or otherwise heretical.

For religious education, you should discard any idolatrous materials that might be in your home. It is also recommended that you have a Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) at home which has a proper translation, published by an Orthodox Jewish printing company. We recommend the "Stone Edition" Tanakh, which is published by Artscroll:

https://artscroll.com/Books/stgs.html

To see a selection of recommended books for adults and children (some are posted on-line), please visit our web page for Recommended Books:

https://asknoah.org/books

In particular, you should consider the new children's book which teaches the Noahide Commandments, written at a level for children of ages 7-12 in general:

"The Colorful Rainbow Dream," by Dr. Daphne M. Cohen

which can be ordered via the web-page

https://asknoah.org/books/the-colorful-rainbow-dream

A special significance of this book is the artful way that the fundamental principles of faith are interwoven into the dialogue and the clever illustrations of the Noahide Code.

noodle Wrote:I want my children to have some form of community that is faith-based. What is a Noahide to do? What suggestions or direction could you offer on how to realistically provide a faith-community for my family that would not be idolatrous?

First of all, you can provide your children with age-appropriate children's books that teach the Noahide Code (i.e. "The Colorful Rainbow Dream" book reference above), and other books that teach Torah values and morality:

Books & DVDs for Children: https://asknoah.org/books?cat=156

Your children will understand when you explain that other Noahide children also have those books and enjoy reading them, so they will know that there are lots of Torah-faithful children in the world (both Noahide and Jewish) who these books are being written for.

Secondly, you can contact me to introduce you to other Noahide families who have children of similar ages, who your children could be "Noahide pen pals" with (or Noahide email pals). And you might be pleasantly surprised to learn that there are some Noahide families right in your area.

Depending on your situation, you could also look into moving to an area which has a reliable Noahide community.

noodle Wrote:On a related note - some people in my community are likely to express anti-Semitic sentiments (either directly or somewhat indirectly). This also is a big problem for me.

Yes, it is a big problem. But thank G-d, anti-Semitic rhetoric, and especially flaming anti-Semitic rhetoric, has been drawing a lot of attention recently as a totally unacceptable bigotry. The first place to start is with educating your children that anti-Semitism is wrong, and is generally indicative of a person's underlying idolatrous, atheistic or otherwise heretical beliefs. Teach your children to come home and share with you the things they've heard, instead of starting an argument with the offending child. Then you can explain the issues to your child on his or her level, and that other children just repeat what they have heard at home or elsewhere, for which they can't be held responsible.
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#5
Hi all,

There are some things I'm having difficulty understanding and dealing with which seems linked to this topic.

Where I live and work, I am generally surrounded by people who reject G-d altogether or worship an idol. Where I work, there is not one person around me who I interact with that respects G-d. For the most, He is simply irrelevant. Sometimes when I hear some of their statements about religion, or the strange image of the god they reject in their minds, it starts to alter my view of them to where I can't really get along with them. When I spoke with one person about the his view of religion, the way he declared his disrespect for the god he rejected just made me dislike him. In other ways, he's a nice fellow, but because it's difficult for me to deal with someone who disrespects G-d, I can still be civil, but I find it difficult to like him. It's a bit like someone disrespecting my wife. I love her so I take it personally when they disrespect her.

I'm asking a range of questions but I hope you can help and guide me, as I don't want to do a disservice to the Most High by acting wrongly to the people around, not pursuing peace because I take their stance as offensive.

1) What is a "wicked" person as stated in an earlier post?
2) I feel estranged and possibly become somewhat bitter about a secular society in which I live because their view is exactly that: secular, i.e., godless and denigrating of religion and G-d. Is this wrong? How do I deal with this righteously?
3) What is a "fool" speaking in Torah terms? I know there are several Hebrew words that are translated as the english word "fool", but I also know that the english word "fool" doesn't seem to convey the same meaning as the Hebrew words, like ksil and naval. Am I in the place to judge people as fools? Is it just a case that the people around me are simply misguided because of society, like something that Rambam said about Karaites, being like children raised in captivity (I know I've got that wrong, but I hope you know what I'm referring to)? I need to know this because there is a proverb that says not to answer a fool (ksil) according to his folly and yet to answer a fool according to his folly (I do understand that this is not contradictory). How do I deal with the different types of fools that the Hebrew Bible speaks of?
4) Is it wrong of me to judge a person? When I say judge, I don't mean becoming a judge to determine their right to life. I mean to discern and form an opinion in order to guide my actions with regards to how to view and deal with others. I know scripture still advocates some sort of judgment because it speaks of "asot mishpat", doing judgment, in Micah 6 and a verse in Psalm 15 can be interpreted as "in whose eyes a vile person is rejected," and you have to determine who is a vile person. Torah Law says to judge righteously, as in Proverbs 21 that speaks of loving "tzedakah" and "mishpat" is more precious to HaShem than sacrifices. tzedakah seems to understood as "righteousness" and mishpat as "judgment." Plus, in the 7 Laws, there is a law against anarchy or about "dinim" (courts of law), which I believe has implications for how we judge even in our individual lives, especially in this time when there is no Torah government. When I look in The Divine Code, the laws of Dinim seems to cover family life, so I think it is wider ranging that just government, right? How would I know if someone is a fool if I am not allowed to judge? So how and when do I, as a Noahide, judge anything or anyone?

I know that these may be big questions, but sometimes I find it just has hard to deal with the people around me as it is to deal with myself, and dealing with something as troublesome and unruly as myself is hard enough to deal with.

Thanks for whatever help and guidance you can give.

Shalom
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#6
amenyahu Wrote:1) What is a "wicked" person as stated in an earlier post?

In a Torah context, it means a person who:
- willfully engages in sinful acts (in violation of something he is commanded by G-d to do or not do, from among the 7 general Noahide Commandments, or from among the 613 detailed Jewish Commandments), and/or
- willfully engages in sinful speech (for example, harmful gossip), and/or
- who willfully engages in sinful thoughts (for example, belief in an idol, or thinking about the pleasures of a forbidden sexual relationship).

Depending on the specific transgression and his personal background and situation, a person may or may not be judged *by G-d* as liable regarding that particular thing, if he never learned that G-d commanded for him about that thing, as being prohibited or required.

amenyahu Wrote:2) I feel estranged and possibly become somewhat bitter about a secular society in which I live because their view is exactly that: secular, i.e., godless and denigrating of religion and G-d. Is this wrong? How do I deal with this righteously?

On the one hand, it is justified to have those feelings. On the other hand, you have to realize that G-d is creating the world anew at every instant and in every detail, according to His Divine Providence - for the purpose that through the efforts of pious human beings, it will be increasingly corrected and eventually (soon!) become receptive to His openly and eternally revealed Kingship.

We must remember the example of Abraham and Sarah, the first Patriarch and Matriarch. They were entrenched in a sinful idolatrous society, in which G-d was basically forgotten in the world. Yet they did not become estranged and bitter. They picked up the banner of monotheism - the true monotheism of knowledge of the One True G-d
- and through their methods of offering outstanding goodness and kindness to all, they brought back the universal service of respect and obedience to G-d into the world. They also began the process of bringing back G-d's revealed presence in the world, which was completed through Moses at Mount Sinai. At Mount Sinai, the Torah Laws of the 613 Jewish and 7 Noahide Commandments where transmitted into the world by G-d through Moses, after He revealed Himself openly to the entire Jewish nation (at least 3 million people), to start the process by which mankind prepares for the Messianic Era (may it be revealed immediately!).

Each person can ask himself or herself, "When will my deeds be like the deeds of Abraham and Sarah?"

amenyahu Wrote:3) What is a "fool" speaking in Torah terms? I know there are several Hebrew words that are translated as the english word "fool", but I also know that the english word "fool" doesn't seem to convey the same meaning as the Hebrew words, like "ksil" and "naval."

1) someone who lacks true wisdom (the true wisdom is the wisdom of Torah, which contains G-d's wisdom)

2) someone who behaves, speeks and thinks childishly, even though he's an adult in years

3) someone who sins, because he is overcome by a "spirit of foolishness" -
(i) he foolishly imagines that his sins do not affect his connection with G-d (the Source of true life), or
(ii) he foolishly imagines that he will not be punished in this world, and that his soul will not be punished in the spiritual world, for his unrepentant willful sins, or
(iii) he foolishly imagines that he can willfully sin now, and he assures himself that he will repent later in his life when he's ready, to absolve himself of his sins.
(iv) he foolishly imagines that he doesn't have the strength of will to hold himself back from sinning so he gives in, because he foolishly thinks his desire to do the sin is too strong for him to overcome.

amenyahu Wrote:Am I in the place to judge people as fools?

Sometimes it's obvious. The Hebrew Bible says that a fool reveals himself as such to others, through his manner of speaking and his manner of walking.

amenyahu Wrote:Is it just a case that the people around me are simply misguided because of society, like something that Rambam said about Karaites, being like children raised in captivity?

In our times (the End of Days, just before the Messianic Era), that's usually true about a greater or lesser number of a person's issues, if he's not been raised to know about and obey what he's commanded by the One True G-d, and if he still hasn't learned about that yet or taken it seriously as an adult. (In our time, there are finally active Torah-based outreach efforts to spread the basic message of the Noahide Commandments, as well as in-depth learning that is available for those who move onto that direction. There are also Noahide community groups forming and growing around the word.) But for some things that are foundations for civilized society, a person can't validly claim the excuse of not having learned that it's forbidden (like stealing, or harming or murdering others).

amenyahu Wrote:How do I deal with the different types of fools that the Hebrew Bible speaks of?

Where possible, try to have compassion and pity on them for the errors of their ways. Just having those feelings when you interact with them will subconsciously make their hearts more receptive to the seeds of goodness and piety that you can plant in their minds and hearts, if you choose your words and actions well, and if you are an example of goodness, kindness and righteousness - because they will have a realization in their hearts that they should be emulating that way of life. Most people are sinful or crass or irreverant because they are very self-centered, with regard to their own opinions and their own desires.

The best way to dispell darkness is to turn on a light - even just a small light will automatically dispell a lot of darkness. If you cultivate your own piety, humility and modesty, it can be like a shock treatment to a foolish and wicked person. The other person may defensively act very scorned and indignant or angry about this, but that is the sign that a deep impression has been made. Nevertheless, you should approach people in a positive way, and not in a negative, accusatory way. It is easier for a person to get started by just adding in the positive things that he can presently accept.

amenyahu Wrote:4) Is it wrong of me to judge a person? When I say judge, I don't mean becoming a judge to determine their right to life. I mean to discern and form an opinion in order to guide my actions with regards to how to view and deal with others. I know scripture still advocates some sort of judgment because it speaks of "asot mishpat", doing judgment, in Micah 6 and a verse in Psalm 15 can be interpreted as "in whose eyes a vile person is rejected," and you have to determine who is a vile person. Torah Law says to judge righteously, as in Proverbs 21 that speaks of loving "tzedakah" and "mishpat" is more precious to HaShem than sacrifices. tzedakah seems to understood as "righteousness" and mishpat as "judgment." Plus, in the 7 Laws, there is a law against anarchy or about "dinim" (courts of law), which I believe has implications for how we judge even in our individual lives, especially in this time when there is no Torah government. When I look in The Divine Code, the laws of Dinim seems to cover family life, so I think it is wider ranging that just government, right? How would I know if someone is a fool if I am not allowed to judge? So how and when do I, as a Noahide, judge anything or anyone?

You can personally judge whether a person's ACTS or SPEECH or STATED BELIEFS are sinful, but you can't judge how G-d Himself is judging that person - as liable or not liable, or to what degree. Because that can be judged only with Omniscience, and only G-d has that power.

amenyahu Wrote:sometimes I find it just has hard to deal with the people around me as it is to deal with myself, and dealing with something as troublesome and unruly as myself is hard enough to deal with.

Wisely said :-)

amenyahu Wrote:Thanks for whatever help and guidance you can give.
Shalom

You're welcome - that is what we are here for!
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#7
Quote:The following are customary roles among those who worship idols: a magician, a diviner, a soothsayer, a witch, a charmer, a medium, a wizard or a necromancer. All these, even when they do not actually include idol worship in their practices, are branches of idolatrous services, and they cause and bring a person to serve idols.

So does this mean we canNOT talk to such people? What if we are being careful to stay true to HaShem?

My best friend is a witch, so I was wondering if I was not at all allowed to talk to her?
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#8
Certainly if your witch friend tries to draw you into the practices and beliefs of witches (i.e. proselytizing), you should make it clear that you totally refuse to be approached about such things.

On the contrary, you should try to draw her away from those paganistic practices and beliefs, by telling her about the spiritual greatness of acknowledging the One True G-d and walking with Him always, with her whole heart, in earnest humility and deference to His Kingship. This includes understanding that in reality, "there is none besides Him." A good place to start is to share with her our introductory e-booklet about the Torah's Noahide Code, in print, ebook, or free PDF download:

https://asknoah.org/books/good-for-you-noahide-code
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