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How to can one observe only eating Jewish-certified kosher meat?
11-16-2017, 12:59 AM (This post was last modified: 11-23-2017 01:11 PM by Director Michael.)
Post: #1
How to can one observe only eating Jewish-certified kosher meat?
I understand that in regard to land mammals and birds, there is a justification, but not a requirement, for a Gentile to voluntarily restrict himself to only eating Jewish-certified kosher meat. That is because a practical consequence of the Jewish kosher-slaughter method is that there is no possibility that it could be forbidden as "meat from a living animal."

So a Noahide is permitted to choose to eat only kosher-certified meat, if he wishes to go "beyond the letter of the law" in the observance of his commanded prohibition against eating meat that was removed from a living land mammal or bird.

I would like to understand how this voluntary restriction could be put into practice considering the following:

1] A gentile is punishable for eating even the slightest amount of an edible part that was taken from a living land mammal or bird.

2] Many general foods that are not labelled 'Kosher' will contain an amount of meat, or derived elements, that could possibly be forbidden as meat from a living land mammal or bird e.g. breads.

3] A Gentile's utensils may retain slight amounts of meat that could possibly be forbidden as meat from a living land mammal or bird.

While a Gentile does not have a prohibition in cases of doubt, if a Gentile relies on this in relation to scenarios 2] & 3] how can they justify not relying on doubt in all cases?

If a Gentile is going to voluntary restrict themselves to eating only kosher-certified meat, and thereby not rely upon doubt, then how could they carve out an exception for scenarios 2] & 3]? Shouldn't the Gentile either rely on doubt in all cases, or be as scrupulous as possible in all cases to avoid the possibility of eating meat from a living land mammal or bird?

Is it because we are still only talking about an entirely voluntary restriction, that the Gentile can be selective to what extent he/she reduces the possibility of eating meat from a living land mammal or bird.

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Neil
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11-23-2017, 02:28 PM (This post was last modified: 11-23-2017 02:30 PM by Director Michael.)
Post: #2
RE: How to can one observe only eating Jewish-certified kosher meat?
(11-16-2017 12:59 AM)Noahide Q Wrote:  I would like to understand how this voluntary restriction could be put into practice considering the following:

1] A gentile is punishable for eating even the slightest amount of an edible part that was taken from a living land mammal or bird.

That only applies if he knows that the piece of meat was taken while the animal was still alive. If does not know, he does not transgress if he eats it. Here is what is written in "The Divine Code," Part IV, topic 6:8, by Rabbi Moshe Weiner of Jerusalem -

"A Gentile does not have a prohibition in cases of doubt. Therefore, a Gentile transgresses only if he definitely recognizes that aspect [of the action he's doing] that is forbidden. So, for example, if there is an unresolved doubt as to whether or not a piece of meat is 'eiver min hachai,' it is permitted for a Gentile to eat it."

(11-16-2017 12:59 AM)Noahide Q Wrote:  2] Many general foods that are not labelled 'Kosher' will contain an amount of meat, or derived elements, that could possibly be forbidden as meat from a living land mammal or bird e.g. breads.

The rule I just quoted above applies to that issue. Also, see in the quoted source, topic 6:3 -

"If meat has been processed and changed to the extent that it is no longer considered a 'food,' there is no prohibition, because it is no longer related to a normal way of 'eating.' Therefore, if a piece of 'eiver min hachai' meat has been changed to the extent that it is no longer in the category of human food - for example, if it has been dried and made into powder that itself would not be eaten in a manner of food - the prohibition is removed."

(11-16-2017 12:59 AM)Noahide Q Wrote:  3] A Gentile's utensils may retain slight amounts of meat that could possibly be forbidden as meat from a living land mammal or bird.

The above quoted rule about the permissibility of cases of doubt applies even more to that issue. Also, it is only the piece of meat itself that is forbidden, and not the blood or juices from the meat. The majority of authoritative Rabbinical opinions is that for Gentiles, if taste is absorbed into other food from forbidden meat, the other food is not forbidden. How much more is there no prohibition if it is just a left-over taste from the meat. In the above quoted source, see topic 6:6 -

"If, however, one cooked the meat and consumed the sauce, or squeezed out the juices from the meat and drank that, he is not liable. Similarly, if one cooked this meat together with other foods and the forbidden meat imparted a flavor to those foods, one is not liable for consuming the other foods. ...
It is nevertheless forbidden to deliberately [knowingly] cook or mix meat that was severed from a living land mammal or bird with other foods, for the purpose of then benefiting from the forbidden flesh [e.g., to benefit from the taste of that piece of flesh]."

See also the footnotes there.

(11-16-2017 12:59 AM)Noahide Q Wrote:  While a Gentile does not have a prohibition in cases of doubt, if a Gentile relies on this in relation to scenarios 2] & 3] how can they justify not relying on doubt in all cases?

Regarding "eiver min ha'chai" meat, a Gentile may rely on doubt in all cases that come to him by accident or happenstance. He is only forbidden to take a piece of meat that he knows is "eiver min ha'chai," and then deliberately use it to create a case of doubt, so that he can have some benefit or pleasure from that piece of meat. In the above quoted source, see topic 6:10.

(11-16-2017 12:59 AM)Noahide Q Wrote:  If a Gentile is going to voluntary restrict themselves to eating only kosher-certified meat, and thereby not rely upon doubt, then how could they carve out an exception for scenarios 2] & 3]? Shouldn't the Gentile either rely on doubt in all cases, or be as scrupulous as possible in all cases to avoid the possibility of eating meat from a living land mammal or bird?

Is it because we are still only talking about an entirely voluntary restriction, that the Gentile can be selective to what extent he/she reduces the possibility of eating meat from a living land mammal or bird.

It is because the commandment only applies to "eating meat" - which means taking a piece of meat and eating it in its normal form as normal food.

It is further prohibited (but not as a capital sin), for a Gentile to take a piece of meat that he knows is forbidden and use it in some way to derive a benefit or pleasure for himself. This includes a person who feeds it to someone else who doesn't know it's forbidden, if he gets a benefit or pleasure from giving it to that person.
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12-03-2017, 04:33 PM
Post: #3
RE: How to can one observe only eating Jewish-certified kosher meat?
It is because the commandment only applies to "eating meat" - which means taking a piece of meat and eating it in its normal form as normal food.

Thank you so much for the above clarification. The above comment was the key to clearing things up for me.

It is further prohibited (but not as a capital sin), for a Gentile to take a piece of meat that he knows is forbidden and use it in some way to derive a benefit or pleasure for himself. This includes a person who feeds it to someone else who doesn't know it's forbidden, if he gets a benefit or pleasure from giving it to that person.

Given the above I understand that a Gentile should not have a share in a restaurant, or businesses, that sells rocky mountain oysters as food to the general public. As far as I know this kind of meat is a novelty available only in particular regions, probably through local arrangements between restaurants and cattle ranchers. If there are any major meat manufacturers involved with mass production and distribution then I understand a Noahide should not be a shareholder in such a business.

I would like to make one more observation. Please correct me if I am wrong. Noahides volunteering to eat only kosher certified meat also has several positive flow on effects. It appears this would financially support the Jewish people and the orthodox community involved with the kosher meat industry and retailers. Isn't it better that our meat budget can go to supporting Torah observant Jews involved with the entire process? I understand the supply of Kosher meat to some remoter areas will often depend on whether a minimum threshold of demand is met.

For the same reason I like to choose an Israeli kosher wine to support Jews rather than other options even though it may be more expensive.

The potential pitfall I see is that the Noahide would just need to be careful that they are not giving people a mistaken impression that they are a Jew. For example, it would not be wise for a Noahide to have crab meat and kosher sausages in their shopping trolley at the same time, or buying the meat on a Saturday if this gives an impression it could be a Jew breaking the Sabbath?

Noahides would have to be prepared to explain their position in detail as the question will always come up when a person advises they will not eat particular things. It would present itself as an opportunity to talk about this Noahide law and the Noahide laws in general.
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12-04-2017, 07:43 AM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2017 07:46 AM by Director Michael.)
Post: #4
RE: How to can one observe only eating Jewish-certified kosher meat?
(12-03-2017 04:33 PM)Noahide Q Wrote:  It is further prohibited (but not as a capital sin), for a Gentile to take a piece of meat that he knows is forbidden and use it in some way to derive a benefit or pleasure for himself. This includes a person who feeds it to someone else who doesn't know it's forbidden, if he gets a benefit or pleasure from giving it to that person.

Given the above I understand that a Gentile should not have a share in a restaurant, or businesses, that sells rocky mountain oysters as food to the general public. As far as I know this kind of meat is a novelty available only in particular regions, probably through local arrangements between restaurants and cattle ranchers. If there are any major meat manufacturers involved with mass production and distribution then I understand a Noahide should not be a shareholder in such a business.

That is a good point. For the clarity of our readers, "Rocky Mountain oysters" are cooked testicles that were cut off from live male cattle, as the means of castration. That is an obvious current example of eating "eiver min ha'chai" (meat removed from a living animal):

https://www.asknoah.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=653

(12-03-2017 04:33 PM)Noahide Q Wrote:  I would like to make one more observation. Please correct me if I am wrong. Noahides volunteering to eat only kosher certified meat also has several positive flow on effects. It appears this would financially support the Jewish people and the orthodox community involved with the kosher meat industry and retailers. Isn't it better that our meat budget can go to supporting Torah observant Jews involved with the entire process? I understand the supply of Kosher meat to some remoter areas will often depend on whether a minimum threshold of demand is met.

That is certainly available as a personal option.
(Note that some of those "remote areas" - remote from observant Jews - might be places where there is a family of Chabad-Lubavitch emissaries who are the only ones in the area who are regular consumers of kosher meat, so it is expensive for them to get it delivered, or they have to stock up infrequently with enough to last for a long time.)

(12-03-2017 04:33 PM)Noahide Q Wrote:  For the same reason I like to choose an Israeli kosher wine to support Jews rather than other options even though it may be more expensive.

The potential pitfall I see is that the Noahide would just need to be careful that they are not giving people a mistaken impression that they are a Jew. For example, it would not be wise for a Noahide to have crab meat and kosher sausages in their shopping trolley at the same time, or buying the meat on a Saturday if this gives an impression it could be a Jew breaking the Sabbath?

I don't see it as a problem, if the Noahide doesn't dress like an observant or a cultural Jew when he/she does that shopping (for example, wearing a Jewish-style head or hair covering, or Star of David jewelry).

(12-03-2017 04:33 PM)Noahide Q Wrote:  Noahides would have to be prepared to explain their position in detail as the question will always come up when a person advises they will not eat particular things. It would present itself as an opportunity to talk about this Noahide law and the Noahide laws in general.

I see your point in regard to a Noahide who chooses to buy only kosher meat, so as to avoid any possibility of unknowingly eating meat that is "eiver min ha'chai" (which he would not be liable for, being unaware of any problem with a particular random piece of meat, since it's only a very small chance).

The choice to buy kosher meat could be more conspicuous to others who see that, but the things to explain (if questioned) would be (a) the Noahide law itself (which does not require eating only kosher meat) and (b) the individual's personal decision to go beyond the letter of the law and choose the option to be extra scrupulous. by eating only kosher meat.
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